Author Topic: My Dreams Come True? A Production Electric Harley?(photos and article links inc)  (Read 11364 times)

flar

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If I were to come to your house in my brand new Lamborghini to show it off you'd want to see how fast it goes, how it handles, what it sounds like when I blip the throttle and how much attention it brings, most likely you wouldn't be like - "So, what's the gas mileage like?"

In that example I wouldn't be a potential customer and you wouldn't be playing the role of a market researcher.

The tour they are doing is market research to potential buyers. Rather different conversations will occur...
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Mithion

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If I were to come to your house in my brand new Lamborghini to show it off you'd want to see how fast it goes, how it handles, what it sounds like when I blip the throttle and how much attention it brings, most likely you wouldn't be like - "So, what's the gas mileage like?"

In that example I wouldn't be a potential customer and you wouldn't be playing the role of a market researcher.

The tour they are doing is market research to potential buyers. Rather different conversations will occur...

I fully understand what you mean, I was just trying to say that Harley is not concerned with range on their demonstration bikes.

My example is the same if say you were a customer who came to my Lamborghini dealership, after the test ride I bet you wouldn't be asking about gas mileage lol.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 07:15:16 PM by Mithion »

Mithion

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protomech

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All of those sources are circle-jerking each other. 53 miles is an accurate assessment of range, as is 100, or 30 .. because there are conditions where you can operate the bike in to achieve any of those ranges.

I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)

Until we see test conditions specified along with a range, I will assume it gets about the same range as a Zero S ZF8.5 .. i.e. 100+ city 53 at 70 mph.
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Mithion

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Mithion

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ttxgpfan

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I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)

Oh like you can't see Brian and his army of engineers completely geeking out on the thing as soon as news hit. ;)

protomech

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No doubt.. that's just an awfully specific number.
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ttxgpfan

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I can't see a big company like Harley making a bike with only 53 miles of range, it just doesn't make sense.

Shooot. Do you have any idea how many bars you can hit in 53 miles. ;)

ttxgpfan

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No doubt.. that's just an awfully specific number.

I'd say they're getting good at their jobs, or being distracted from them as the case may be. :D

BrammoBrian

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I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)

*Brian's personal speculation*

In one of the videos, you can see the display showing battery voltage, SOC, and range estimate.



It's also been made clear that Harley have worked with Mission on the bike, and most likely will have sourced the battery from them as well.  Mission lists their module specification on their website.  What seems to make sense knowing what I do about the Mission R is that they constructed a pack from 4 of their EV modules in series = 96S 1P = 350Vdc (nominal) / 20Ah = 7.0kWh.  The 350Vdc nominal pack would be at about 25% SOC at 300V and 0% at 288Vdc, so that seems to work. That would yield a pack weight of about 130lbs given the specific energy of the Mission battery at 123Wh/kg.   Peak power would be scaled from the Mission datasheet to be about 8.5C, or 60kW, which corresponds nicely to the 55-57kW peak power claim by Harley. 

Using general driving efficiency numbers of the Empulse, that yields an average driving range of about 45 miles and a maximum (city drive profile) range of 98 miles, which is also pretty darn close to the 53/100 claim.

The pack size is probably small for a number of reasons:

1. They followed a traditional approach on designing the bike where they gave the stylists first crack and then left it to the engineers to fit the "package". 

2. A small battery means less cost on the most expensive component, thus it made their internal business case look reasonable.

3. As others have suggested, a small battery would benefit handling and acceleration, which will be rated on the tour more over range. 

Another possibility is that it's a 2P battery pack and they've got 14.0 kWh on-board, but I doubt they would claim such low range with such high capacity.  Or... they could've sourced the battery somewhere else and I'm way off base...  :-\

protomech

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300V seems a little low for 96S and 26% SOC .. that's 3.125 volts per cell. My Zero bike reports 0% SOC at pretty close to 3.2 volts per cell. Maybe Harley is just more aggressive about discharging farther.
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Mithion

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BrammoBrian

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300V seems a little low for 96S and 26% SOC .. that's 3.125 volts per cell. My Zero bike reports 0% SOC at pretty close to 3.2 volts per cell. Maybe Harley is just more aggressive about discharging farther.

I think you're correct. Good catch! I went back and reviewed the Mission motor controller datasheet and remembered it has a peak input voltage of 450 Vdc, which would allow for a higher series string configuration. Still, even maxing it out at 108s would only provide for an 8.0 kWh pack. So... I think the answer is somewhere between 7 and 8kWh.

Mithion

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Being as knowledgeable as you guys are and BrammoBrian working in the industry, what do you think Harley will charge for the LiveWire based on the specs and tech etc?