I bought a Zero

[Richard230]

As some of the members here already know, on Friday I picked up the ZF9 Zero S that I ordered late last December. If you want to read about the my experiences owning the bike so far you can visit http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php and check out the Zero sub-forum.

However, I felt that I should explain my purchase, having been a strong Brammo supporter and an Empulse pre-order customer for over 18 months. I really liked the pre-production Empulse and I was looking forward to owning one. But when they decided to upgrade the bike with a transmission and then could not provide a date for delivery of the new model, my money started to burn a hole in my pocket - but there really wasn't any comparable alternative.  And then the 2012 Zero S was announced with a claimed 114-mile range and a 9 kWh battery pack.

I use my motorcycles for practical transportation and not sport riding. I need a real-world range of 70 miles and a cruising speed of 65 mph. The new Zero S just met those requirements. Plus, I liked that it only had one speed (not being concerned that much about off-the-line acceleration) and a clean and quiet belt drive.  Although the supermoto style is not my cup of tea and the bike has little ability to carry luggage, Zero got it on the market and to their dealer's showrooms during a warm and dry winter and I just couldn't resist emptying my bank account.  You know what they say about a "bird in the hand".

It is my guess that when the Empulse is finally introduced to the public, it will be a superior vehicle than the Zero models. It will likely be faster, accelerate quicker, handle better, have a greater range, be more comfortable and look better. But the Zero is here and the Brammo isn't and I am not getting any younger.   

One comment that I will make though, is that I expect gas prices to really spike this summer, due to potential problems in the middle East and when that happens, you can expect a stampede by the general, SUV-owning, public to buy (or lease, if they can) any kind of all-electric vehicles, including motorcycles. When we had the gas crisis during the 1970's, gas was in short supply (although the price was controlled, it was rationed and the purchase amounts that you could buy were very limited). At that time motorcycles of all kinds were immediately snapped up by the car-driving public (many of whom should not have been riding anything with two wheels) in order to commute to work on as little fuel as possible. Of course EVs were not available then, but if gas supplies are choked off this summer, EVs of all types, and especially relatively low-priced motorcycles, are going to be worth their weight in gold - at least for the duration of the crisis.

So make your plans accordingly. 

[Gavin]

Congrats and ENJOY

I will say a single speed electric bike is a complete joy to ride that is insanely simple...jump on and go.

If you are right about gas this summer I expect the PLUS to sell like gang busters...under ten K and 80 plus miles range and easy to ride will sell a lot of bikes...I hope

Gavin

[protomech]

I too expect gas prices to hit $3.50 or $4/gal this summer. The global economy shows some signs of improving, which probably means gas prices will rise.

That said, I think many people have become accustomed to $3/gal gas as the "new normal". I know when Katrina hit and gas hit $4/gal people went through the roof here. Almost four years later and $3/gal is normal.

Taken as a percentage, gas prices are still not the dominant factor in the total cost of operating a vehicle - though often they're the most visible cost.

Ex: a 2010 automatic civic sedan, 5 year estimated TCO is $30k, $9300 of which is fuel.
Ex 2: a 2012 tahoe LTZ AWD, 5 year estimated TCO is $68k, $16k of which is fuel.

[Gavin]

ps....photos and reports please ...no rush, just when you get the time.


looks like a great little bike. i know you will like it. one you go electric, gas kinda sucks.

Range...would love to know the range at speed. Your requirement of 65 mph and 70 miles range...is that at the same time? I would love to know if the Zero can do 65 mph for 70 miles, that would be great.

Thanks

Gavin

[EmpulseRider]

Congrats on the new bike! That makes 2 former Empulse pre-orderers on these forums AFAIK, richard230 and oobflyer.

Now I dont want to bug Brammo too much since it appears they are focused on getting the Empulse out ASAP, but... perhaps a little bit of news, or another "leaked" video would appease the masses .

Maybe, just maybe Brammo could consider a modest discount, or a credit towards options, for those who stuck in there for the long run waiting 2 very long years...

Just a suggestion!

[Gavin]

Good suggestions....though I might be a bit biased

Though I probably shouldn't be asking for an accessory discount too loudly with the long term test/loaner bike I've had...

 


Gavin

[Phantom]

Congratulations from me as well. I hope you enjoy riding it. I saw the photos on elmoto.net which really show off the features.

Maybe, just maybe Brammo could consider a modest discount, or a credit towards options, for those who stuck in there for the long run waiting 2 very long years...

It is my understanding that the battery costs are the main driver for Brammo prices to the customer (e.g. us). If Brammo has their own line/brand of batteries, I would expect the cost to come down some, like it did for the Enertia Classic, unless it was already factored into their original price model.

[FreepZ]

I can totally sympathize with Richard.

The lack of news or in fact any kind of information at all from Brammo is quite depressing. There are so many ways that they could be keeping us excited about waiting for the Empulse (and the E Plus), but the only thing that seems to be coming out of there is a deafening silence.

I've tried to encourage them to be more forthcoming with news:

The lack of any news from Brammo is making the Great Wait rather painful.
 

And got a response that "news was on the way":

We are about to announce a new hire in this area so I will make sure Peter is aware of your desire for more frequent glimpses behind the scenes...

Sadly, I haven't seen anything really new since then.

Personally, I'm not looking for any discount, or for the bike to be rushed into production. Just give me some news about what's going on, or some insight about where things are. The more I know, the more I can feel part of the process, and the more excited I'm going to be about the bike and the company in general. Right now I'm feeling pretty excluded.

[Richard230]

Based upon my very limited riding experience on the 9 KWh Zero S, I would say that the actual range, ridden conservatively (at say 45 to 50 mph), is about 70 miles. But if you are on the freeway and riding at say 65 mph, 45 miles may be more likely.  One report says that goosing the throttle on the freeway will only get you about 35 miles before the power pack is done.  Those claimed 114 miles were apparently ridden very slowly on a treadmill in an enclosed room.    Whatever you hear about the range of an electric vehicle, take it with a big grain of salt.  

It doesn't take long before you learn about energy management.

I might add that I took the Zero up to an indicated 85 mph in just a few seconds, with more to come. But the speedometer is clearly optimistic. I would guess by at least 10% - just like my BMW motorcycles.  That is the cheap way to make you think you are really going fast.   

Also, having only one speed, the Zero is quite slow off the line, up to about 10 mph, when it picks up and starts moving fast enough to keep up with the typical car.  It has enough power to keep up with traffic and even to pass a slowpoke, if needed. But for riders of an IC motorcycle, it is no ball of fire. I am waiting to see some scientific performance testing in the monthly magazines.
 
My photos are larger than the maximum permitted and I don't know how to re-size them to meet the 500 KB limit. However, I have a friend that took photos of me and the bike yesterday at Alice's Restaurant, using his camera's email size setting and he has promised to send them to me. When he does, I will post them here.

[EmpulseRider]

Based upon my very limited riding experience on the 9 KWh Zero S, I would say that the actual range, ridden conservatively (at say 45 to 50 mph), is about 70 miles. But if you are on the freeway and riding at say 65 mph, 45 miles may be more likely.  One report says that goosing the throttle on the freeway will only get you about 35 miles before the power pack is done.  Those claimed 114 miles were apparently ridden very slowly on a treadmill in an enclosed room.     Whatever you hear about the range of an electric vehicle, take it with a big grain of salt.   

Hmm, it will interesting to see how the Empulse 10.0 will compare. I will be perfectly happy if I can get 50 highway miles out of it (possibly with a passenger), since that is the farthest round trip I will have to go. The 6 speed should help, the extra 1kWh (+11%) should also help.

[protomech]

If the Empulse is 10.0 kwh nominal rating (like the Enertia is), then the 7.9 kwh nominal rating of the Zero is the better figure to use. Likely closer to +25% capacity than +11%.

Zero puts a blurb about maximum capacity being the "industry standard", but I'm not sure who else besides Zero rates their vehicles that way.

Brammo Enertia? 6x U-Charge U1-12XP module, each module is 12.8V 40Ah nominal. 3.1 kWh nominal.
Nissan Leaf? 48 modules, each module is 4 cells, each cell is 3.8V 33Ah nominal. 24.1 kWh nominal.
Tesla Roadster? 11 sheets, each sheet is 9 bricks, each brick is 69 18650 cells. Hard to find info on the cells, but they seem to be 3.8V 2.0Ah nominal. 53 kWh nominal.

Pack capacity is, by itself, not a terribly useful metric. We generally don't care about tank size in our gas vehicles, we care about total range and cost per mile. By the same token, from a consumer's point of view nominal vs maximum capacity ratings is somewhat pointless bickering.. what matters is the range.

But if Brammo brings 25% more capacity, barring significantly lower efficiencies in the Empulse powertrain then the Empulse should have significantly more range.

Time will tell. Right now an Empulse gets 0 miles to charge, so Zero's well in the lead ; )

[skuzzle]

My photos are larger than the maximum permitted and I don't know how to re-size them to meet the 500 KB limit.

I downloaded a free picture resizer from download.cnet.com.  Seems to work well.  Just type "resizer" into the search window to find it.  (Sorry to get off-topic in the off-topic forum)

[protomech]

Woot, found some information on the Zero packs.

2012 bikes are supposedly 66 V nominal - applies to XU, S, DS (source). 18 lithium NMC pouch cells, approx 3.7 V each. ZF3 is approx 40 Ah, ZF6 is approx 80 Ah, ZF9 is approx 120 Ah (source).

That works out neatly to Zero's claims of 2.6 kwh nominal, 5.3 kwh nominal, 7.9 kwh nominal.

Brammo's BPM 44/70 module is 44 V, 70 Ah nominal - very likely 12 3.7 V 70 Ah NMC pouch cells as well. Enertia Plus uses two modules (24 cells) for an 88 V 70 Ah pack, 6.2 kwh nominal.

BrammoBrian also says the 2011 Empulse RR uses twice as many cells as the Enertia Plus. 48 3.7V 70 Ah pouches gives a 178 V 12.5 kWh pack - which is exactly the capacity that A&R reported a while ago.

At one point the Empulse 10.0 was listed at 110 V. Brammo's site now lists all 3 models at 88.8 V. Of course, who knows if all 3 models will ship.

Likely still 24 total pouch cells, just larger capacities. 6.0 would use the Enertia Plus 70 Ah pouches. 8.0 would use pouches rated at 90-95 Ah. 10.0 would likely use pouches rated at 115-120 Ah.

My question is this:

Can Brammo ship a bike with a 10 kwh pack (24 ~120Ah pouches), IET, 40+ kw motor, liquid cooling, J1772 / 3kw charger at the same price as Zero's 7.9 kwh pack (18 120Ah pouches), belt drive, 30 kw motor, 1kw charger?

If Brammo can.. then either their component prices are much better, their process is much less expensive, or Zero is making pretty huge margins on their bike. Either way, Zero will probably drop the prices on their bikes.

If Brammo can't.. then prices will go up or features will be cut. And there's probably going to be a communication blackout while Brammo figures out what it wants to do.

[craigq]

Based upon my very limited riding experience on the 9 KWh Zero S, I would say that the actual range, ridden conservatively (at say 45 to 50 mph), is about 70 miles. But if you are on the freeway and riding at say 65 mph, 45 miles may be more likely.

Thanks for all or your comments and pictures on the S so far Richard 
Raw number crunching shows a highway steady state range @ 70mph should be 43.5 miles for the S ZF9.

[craigq]

My question is this:

Can Brammo ship a bike with a 10 kwh pack (24 ~120Ah pouches), IET, 40+ kw motor, liquid cooling, J1772 / 3kw charger at the same price as Zero's 7.9 kwh pack (18 120Ah pouches), belt drive, 30 kw motor, 1kw charger?

I really appreciate your analysis of this protomech, I've not been paying too much attention to the evolution/changes with the Empulse so this should be interesting to see how it actually develops...